Talk:Judeo-Arabic

dialects of judeo-arabic

This article needs to clearly tell: does or does not each Arab country have it's own dialect of Judeo-Arabic? Each Arab country has it's own dialect of "regular" Arabic.

The Judeo-Arabic dialects predate the modern countries and did not stick to modern country boundaries. I don't think the issue is relevant today, since there are few, if any, native speakers left. Jayjg | (Talk) 17:26, 25 Jan 2005 (UTC)

another thing the page needs to address

Is there an ethnic name for Judeo-Arabic speaking Jews? (along the lines of: Yiddish speaking Jews are Ashkenazim).

Not really; Mizrahi Jews would be closest, but it's not accurate. Judaeo-Arabic speaking Jews came from a number of different regions, and actually spoke different dialects. Jayjg ^(talk) 03:14, 14 Feb 2005 (UTC)

I've never heard of a non-Mizrahi Jew being brought up in the Judeo-Arabic language, what other ethnic backgrounds once carried the language?--Josiah 02:49, Feb 15, 2005 (UTC)

My point was that not all Mizrahi Jews spoke Judaeo-Arabic; Persian Jews would be one obvious Mizrahi group which never spoke Judaeo-Arabic. "Judaeo-Arabic speaking" and "Mizrahi" are not synonymous. Jayjg ^(talk) 17:02, 15 Feb 2005 (UTC)

That's true... The descendants of the Jews of Kaifeng (now all secular) are of Mizrahi origin, but speak Mandarin Chinese. - Gilgamesh 04:32, 16 Feb 2005 (UTC)

Also, many Moroccan Sephardim (not Mizrachim) have been brought up in Judaeo-Arabic, actually... So, all in all, Judaeo-Arabic is not the linguistic equivalent of Mizrachi, nor vice versa. -- Olve 23:03, 16 Feb 2005 (UTC)

There is a term musta'arabi, meaning "Arabized Jew", and that is the nearest you're going to get. It was used of the ancient communities of countries such as Syria, as distinguished from the Sephardi immigrants in the sixteenth century. (On a personal note, I can't stand "Mizrahi" as a general term for all these communities, as by far the largest single group is Moroccan. "Mizrahim" is properly the Hebrew translation of "Mashriqiyyun", Orientals, in other words the peoples of Syria and Iraq as opposed to "Maghrabiyyun", people from North Africa. Jewish usage used to respect this: there is a collection of responsa called "Mizrach u-Maarav".)--Sir Myles na Gopaleen (the da) 14:12, 10 July 2006 (UTC)

I think that's also the origine of Mozarab?Mozarabic (referring to the Arabized Romance language of the Christians of Muslim Spain as their speech was also Arabised, so even that term is slightly ambiguous. ممتاز 20:45, 15 May 2007 (UTC)

Deletion of Categories from cross-references

I linked to Jews of West Africa.

Is it not appropriate, for an article on Judeo-Arabic languages, to link with the sub-culture (Jews of West Africa) that would be speaking these languages. Is not this deletion an exercise of POV, and a violation of NPOV.

In sum, please give a rationale for the deletion. Dogru144 18:19, 10 July 2006 (UTC)

Judeo-Arabic is a much more complex subject

First of all, check the Ethnologue and you will see there are indeed regional variations of Judeo-Arabic. Secondly, Judeo-Arabic is a much older phenomenon. What is described here is only the modern stage of Judeo-Arabic, yet Judeo-Arabic was employed by the Jewish population of Egypt (see Shlomo Dov Goitein's "The Mediterranean Society") as early as the 10th century (see also the Geniza documents|, by the Jewish population of the Maghreb in 15th century and in print by Jews in Iraq. There is a growing body of work on the Judeo-Arabic language, the most important being Joshua Blau's "The Emergence and linguistic background of Judaeo-Arabic" (last edition 1999). My research bibliography includes over 200 monographs and 300 scholarly papers on the subject by such scholars as Haim Blanc, Joshua Blau, Benjamin Hary, Joshua Fishman and Otto Jastrow - to name but a few. There are also audio materials available on the Semarch semitic languages archive website. Gentlemen, please check your sources before contributing. I have been planning to write an entry on the Judeo-Arabic language for some time. Who should I coordinate my work with? Anybody who can help me, feel free to contact me. --Bulbul 23:18, 12 September 2005 (UTC)

Presumably there would (or rather may) have been an Arabic language of some sort spoken by the Jewish tribes in Arabia at the time prior to/at the start of Islam? Not exactly what the article seems to be about, but maybe a seconadry related one should be started on this (not by me though:})ممتاز 20:48, 15 May 2007 (UTC)

Thank you for your suggestion! When you feel an article needs improvement, please feel free to make whatever changes you feel are needed. Wikipedia is a wiki, so anyone can edit almost any article by simply following the Edit this page link at the top. You don't even need to log in! (Although there are some reasons why you might like to…) The Wikipedia community encourages you to be bold. Don't worry too much about making honest mistakes—they're likely to be found and corrected quickly. If you're not sure how editing works, check out how to edit a page, or use the sandbox to try out your editing skills. New contributors are always welcome. Jayjg ^(talk) 23:23, 12 September 2005 (UTC)

Maghrebi Dialect of Alexandria?

That's a severe mistake. I am a native alexandrian and our dialect is as far away from the Maghribi dialects as the Cairene one are. Perhaps in the past (1500-1600?) this was the case, but certainly not in our days. 93.160.123.238 (talk) 13:21, 16 August 2008 (UTC)

Writing system

The sidebar says Arabic script but the image and the article state Hebrew script. I suspect the sidebar is wrong. — Hippietrail (talk) 13:03, 13 December 2008 (UTC)

Which is why, in addition to/instead of the Arabic/Hebrew translation in the opening line, it might be nice to include ערביה יהודיה (I think that's how 3arabiya yahudiya usually written). Better still would be an overview of how Arabic with Hebrew characters differs from standard orthography. —Wiki Wikardo 08:31, 17 September 2012 (UTC)

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Languages?

Why is the term used in the article's title "languages" and not dialects?

The rest of the page correctly treats these so-called "languages" as dialects. The articles about the specific varieites call them varieties. They are very similar to other local varieties. None of the titles of the sources listed in this article and in the articles of the specific dialects call the dialects languages, they all use the terms variety or dialect.

Furthermore, the speakers of these dialects these days usually call them Arabic or (insert location) Arabic, or sometimes, and this is quite rare, Jewish or Jewish Arabic, and treat them as another dialect of Arabic.

I see absolutely no reason for the title to be different from all of the listed above. Eladabudi (talk) 08:17, 10 June 2020 (UTC)

I also want to add that both the Arabic and Hebrew Wikipedia pages call the dialects dialects. Eladabudi (talk) 08:26, 10 June 2020 (UTC)

Requested move 10 June 2020

The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review after discussing it on the closer's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

The result of the move request was: page moved. Eladabudi (talk) 07:06, 17 June 2020 (UTC)

---

Judeo-Arabic languages → Judeo-Arabic dialects – Only the title of this particular page treats Judeo-Arabic dialects as languages. The rest of the article treats the subject as varieties/dialects. The articles on the specific varieties/dialects use the terms "variety" and "dialect", not "language". None of the titles of the cited sources in this page and in related pages (specific varieties) use the term language/s, they all treat them as dialects. Eladabudi (talk) 09:19, 10 June 2020 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Requested move 23 October 2024

The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review after discussing it on the closer's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

The result of the move request was: Moved. (closed by non-admin page mover) SilverLocust 💬 20:02, 2 November 2024 (UTC)

---

Judeo-Arabic dialects → Judeo-Arabic – MAINTOPIC and CONCISE and per Handbook of Jewish Languages and Encyclopedia of Jews in the Islamic World. إيان (talk) 23:41, 23 October 2024 (UTC)

Probably fine? Is there any merit to the idea that Judeo-Arabic be a disambiguation page? Andre🚐 06:08, 25 October 2024 (UTC)

• Support. Srnec (talk) 20:21, 25 October 2024 (UTC)
• Oppose for now but suggest relisting. Handbook of Jewish Languages and Encyclopedia of Jews in the Islamic World both look like excellent references, but what do they say exactly? Is it just that they both have articles with the title Judeo-Arabic? If so (as I suspect), what is their article title convention? It's not necessarily the same as ours. Andrewa (talk) 02:41, 31 October 2024 (UTC)

  It is not clear to me why you oppose? Srnec (talk) 03:03, 31 October 2024 (UTC)

  Can you understand any of my reasoning? What part doesn't make sense to you? But I can't fault your arguments, as you have given none. Andrewa (talk) 08:51, 31 October 2024 (UTC)

  I understand everything you wrote, but none of it is an argument against a move. I see now that you were responding to the nom, which I did not even bother to read, since I would have moved this page without a discussion as uncontroversial.
  My argument is that when there is a single or primary meaning of a linguistic term, like Aramaic or Latin, it is best not to add language(s) or dialect(s) as a qalifier, especially so as not to prejudge the question of whether something is a single language, a language family, a dialectical continuum or a dialect. This is supported by our naming convention, WP:NCLANG: "Articles on language varieties (i.e. languages, dialects or sociolects) can be titled with the bare name of the variety where this is unambiguous or where it is unquestionably the primary topic for the name." This is the case here where, given the meaning of Arabic, the name Judeo-Arabic can hardly mean anything other than a language variety. Srnec (talk) 00:01, 1 November 2024 (UTC)
  As you can see above, this page was once at Judeo-Arabic languages. But that issue is not one we even have to decide at the level of article naming. Srnec (talk) 00:02, 1 November 2024 (UTC)

  Let me try to explain, as you do not appear to understand what I wrote at all.

  My argument against the move is just that there is no case to answer. And in particular, that your !vote needs work.

  I think that you should present any arguments that you have, as this !vote of yours, which presents no arguments at all, may in my opinion be discarded. But of course that is entirely up to the closer, and my comment is for those contributing to this and other discussions rather than for the eventual closer. Those contributors of course include yourself.

  I'm sorry that you found my comment unhelpful. But I'm still hopeful that others will understand my comment and will choose to present arguments, rather than follow your unfortunate example and just state their personal opinion without supporting it. Andrewa (talk) 09:20, 1 November 2024 (UTC)

  I am happy to let the closer decide which of our contributions to this discussion is more valuable. Srnec (talk) 20:23, 1 November 2024 (UTC)

  Likewise, and thank you for now presenting arguments for them to assess. Striking my opposition in view of these arguments. But please don't take it personally. Andrewa (talk) 02:53, 2 November 2024 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Shohat, Blau

If indeed Shohat has a different take vs Blau, we should attribute the various scholarly POVs and contrast them. The article shouldn't simply adopt one and then remove all others. Andre🚐 09:56, 26 October 2024 (UTC)

• See Rubin, Aaron D.; Kahn, Lily (2020-09-13). Jewish Languages from A to Z. Routledge. pp. 4–12. ISBN 978-1-351-04343-4., Kahn, Lily (2018-07-10). Jewish Languages in Historical Perspective. BRILL. pp. 200–203. ISBN 978-90-04-37658-8., Spolsky, Bernard (2014-03-27). The Languages of the Jews: A Sociolinguistic History. Cambridge University Press. ISBN 978-1-107-05544-5., particularly Lily Kahn who treats the Blau and Shohat material, and does NOT say there is no such dialect or ethnolect, but that it is not a distinct language, which I do not think the article was saying it is. Andre🚐 10:15, 26 October 2024 (UTC)

Notified Wikipedia_talk:WikiProject_Jewish_history#2_discussions Andre🚐 10:29, 26 October 2024 (UTC)

What do you mean by if indeed? Did you even read the source? إيان (talk) 10:31, 26 October 2024 (UTC)

I haven't read Shohat, no. But there's a summary of that on p. 200 of Kahn. Andre🚐 10:32, 26 October 2024 (UTC)

This is what's so frustrating. It's your very basic responsibility to actually read and consider the sources you are discussing. Read, then discuss. If you need help accessing the source, you can use the Wikipedia library.

Just as at Modern Hebrew, understand WP:DUEWEIGHT and match the claims to the sources, not the sources to the claims. إيان (talk) 10:39, 26 October 2024 (UTC)

But I didn't cite Shohat. I cited Blau, and you reverted citing Shohat in your edit summary. I couldn't have read Shohat that quickly. Shohat, as I understand it, critiques Blau. However, Lily Kahn is a better source than Shohat, and she treats that criticism. Lily Kahn is a professor of Hebrew and Jewish languages. Shohat is a professor of cultural and Islamic studies. Not saying she can't be used, but she's not a linguist. Blau is a linguist. Lily Kahn clearly explains that Shohat critiques the aspects of Blau that involve Judeo-Arabic being a language. But she doesn't say it's not a group of dialects. Please provide the quote from Shohat that says that. Andre🚐 10:41, 26 October 2024 (UTC)

You cited Blau in 1981 to change material supported to multiple citations to more current scholarship, including a whole chapter on Judeo-Arabic in Handbook of Jewish Languages, a volume edited by Lily Kahn, where the chapter on Judeo-Arabic by Geoffrey Khan states:

The term 'Judeo-Arabic' refers to a type of Arabic that was used by Jews and was distinct in some way from the Arabic used by other religious communities. It is by no means a uniform linguistic entity and is used to refer to both written forms of Arabic and spoken dialects. The Arabic language was used by Jews in Arabia even before the rise of Islam...

Did you actually read the Lily Kahn source you cited, Jewish Languages in Historical Perspective? The pages you cite are not even written by her (Lily Kahn actually edited this volume as well), but by Esther-Miriam Wagner, who writes:

Much of the popular literature but also more traditional academic writing still follows the ideas about Judeo-Arabic that were conceptualized by Joshua Blau, who posited a separate Judeo-Arabic language clearly distinct from all other forms of Middle Arabic and the concept of a supra-territorial relationship between Jewish varieties across the Middle East (Wexler [1981] argued that said relationship went beyond the Middle East). Starting on the evidence of Yemeni Judeo-Arabic, and building on work by Khan, Den Heijer, and Shohat, this chapter has tried to dismantle some of these concepts, and explore their present-day socio-cultural and political backgrounds. (Wagner, Esther-Miriam. "Judeo-Arabic Language or Jewish Arabic Sociolect? Linguistic Terminology between Linguistics and Ideology" in Jewish Languages in Historical Perspective)

Emphasis my own. So, as you can see, the source you cited actually endorses Shohat and seeks to dismantle Blau in 1981. إيان (talk) 21:27, 27 October 2024 (UTC)

That response is missing the fact that those sources still treat Judeo-Arabic as a set of dialects or ethnolects. I never claimed it was a uniform linguistic entity and I didn't change that part. The article text as it was left simply says Judeo-Arabic is Arabic. It's not, it's a set of dialects as Lily Kahn explains. And Kahn does not endorse Shohat at all. It's a citation and a contextualization of Shohat. Andre🚐 21:34, 27 October 2024 (UTC)

Please read Khan again:

The term 'Judeo-Arabic' refers to a type of Arabic that was used by Jews and was distinct in some way from the Arabic used by other religious communities. It is by no means a uniform linguistic entity and is used to refer to both written forms of Arabic and spoken dialects.

It can be dialectical in speech, but it's also written. Similarly, the article Arabic encompasses various spoken Varieties of Arabic as well as standard written Classical Arabic and Modern Standard Arabic, just as Judeo-Arabic does. إيان (talk) 21:40, 27 October 2024 (UTC)

Judeo-Arabic is a descriptor used by linguists to describe a set of both written Arabic, similar to a mutually intelligible koine as Blau explains and Shohat doesn't refute (or if Shohat does refute that, please provide the quote of Shohat refuting it), and spoken Arabic dialects. The critique of Blau by Shohat, which Kahn agrees with and explains, is that Blau treats Judeo-Arabic as a uniform linguistic entity, i.e. its own language. Judeo-Arabic isn't a separate language from Arabic. That is the controversy there. Which I am not disputing or changing in the article. But Judeo-Arabic dialects are dialects of Arabic that do have important differences from Classical Arabic. As Kahn and others get into in-depth. So the problem with the current text is that it says Judeo-Arabic is Classical Arabic as used by Jews. While not false it's lacking in context. The Judeo-Arabic dialects are not uniform but there are a number of different ones which have the traits that linguists use to describe dialects. The current lead text is unclear. And Kahn doesn't wholesale accept that Blau is worthless as Blau is still used and cited as foundational work in the area. In the quotes you gave, it clearly explains that Blau posited a separate language, but Kahn doesn't agree with that. She does, however, treat the existence of Yemeni Judeo-Arabic as a dialect and many others. Andre🚐 21:45, 27 October 2024 (UTC)

But Judeo-Arabic dialects are dialects of Arabic that do have important differences from Classical Arabic. Correct, in the same way that:

Arabic ≠ only Classical Arabic ; Classical Arabic = Classical Arabic

and

Arabic ≠ only Varieties of Arabic ; Varieties of Arabic = Varieties of Arabic

Although the title of this article is still pending adjustment, the scope of this article is not only spoken dialects. For example, when Maimonides wrote in Arabic, which scholars describe as Judeo-Arabic, his prose was virtually indistinguishable from the prose of Muslim scholars of his time, but for the fact that it was written with Hebrew letters.

Do you not have access to Shohat's "The Invention of Judeo-Arabic: Nation, Partition and the Linguistic Imaginary"? Have you not tried to access it through the Wikipedia library? The critique is passim throughout the entire article, but a simple CTrl+F should help you find the explicit mentions. إيان (talk) 22:03, 27 October 2024 (UTC)

I haven't read Shohat in full yet, but Shohat is a non-linguist critiquing linguists. Lily Kahn treats Shohat and she is a linguist and therefore a better source to base the bulk of this article on along with others. See Hary, Benjamin (2021-10-11). Multiglossia in Judeo-Arabic: With an Edition, Translation, and Grammatical Study of the Cairene Purim Scroll. BRILL. p. 79-80. ISBN 978-90-04-49712-2. which distinguishes Classical Judeo-Arabic and Literary Modern Judeo-Arabic. Maimonides, as it explains, wrote in both varieties. Some of his writings therefore cannot be considered Classical. Therefore, your oversimplification of equating Judeo-Arabic with simply Classical Arabic is not the full story. Andre🚐 22:41, 27 October 2024 (UTC)

• You removed the Lital Levy critique of Shohat's politics. [1] I submit that it does belong here. 1, it contextualized Shohat, and 2, Arab Jews and Judeo-Arabic are inextricably linked. Andre🚐 22:36, 2 November 2024 (UTC)