Talk:Ludmilla Tourischeva

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The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposal. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.

The result of the debate was move. —Nightstallion (?) ^{Seen this already?} 13:33, 6 May 2006 (UTC)

Page move

"Ludmilla Tourischeva" seems to be more popular variant of her name, than "Lyudmila Turishcheva": it is used in her profile at International Gymnastics Hall of Fame, in New York Times (pointed out by Mademoiselle Sabina), mentioned at the FIG's website and in Olympic Revue. So, I moved the article to its new name. Cmapm 01:02, 1 May 2006 (UTC)

This is a French transliteration! That this spelling should indeed occur so frequently, is obviously caused by the fact that her last medals were at Montreal. Using Google, it is easy to ascertain that contrary to what you state, it is NOT the most popular version. The most popular one is "Ludmilla Turischeva" - which is a spelling made up by people, who DID notice that the "ou" was impossible in Russian and obviously French, but did not know what to do with the first "u". Since she continues to reside in a country using the Cyrillic alphabet, it is better (in English Wikipedia, and not French!) to use the normal English Wikipedia transliteration of Cyrillic->Romance. And that would be "Lyudmilla Turischeva". Other languages use different transliterations. The Dutch one eg would be "L(j)oedmilla Toeristsjeva". Spanish authors drop the second "l" in her Christian name. [User:Pan_Gerwazy] --pgp 11:24, 1 May 2006 (UTC)

Thank you for your comment! Well, it depends on how we search in Google. If we try searching only by the last name, then "Tourischeva" would occur more frequently, than "Turischeva" (688 vs 608). Besides, I suppose, that IGHOF used the name, supplied by herself upon her induction into it. And could you, please, provide a citation for the claim "which is a spelling made up by people, who..."? So, I personally still find the current variant more preferrable. Cmapm 11:52, 1 May 2006 (UTC)

Please, if you confine yourself to the family name, check for alternative versions of that one too. You are right in claiming that "Tourischeva" occurs more frequently than "Turischeva", but you forget that English transliterators may also transliterate to "Turishcheva". I see that Kuban Kozak has already noticed this. Google gives only 25 pages for "Tourishcheva -Wikipedia" and 561 for "Turishcheva -Wikipedia". So, in this case I would say we are both wrong and the transliteration "Turishcheva" should be used, as the most frequent one of the two possible ones in English. By the way, "provide a citation for the claim "which is a spelling made up by people, who..." ? Anyone who knows the chauvinism of (a lot of!) French-speaking people, knows that you must be careful when they transliterate the names of non-French people. I agree that that is no more than original research, based on my life in Belgium. I did not summon Kuban Kozak to help me, by the way... User:Pan_Gerwazy--pgp 12:12, 1 May 2006 (UTC)

I was also a little wrong about the Dutch and Spanish versions - no need at all for a double "l" in the Christian name, as there was none in the Russian one anyway. English speakers "sometimes" (understatement) put a double "ll" in such instances in order to prevent mispronunciation. Terry Pratchett also uses the spelling "Lyudmilla" for one of his characters somewhere, I think. But now I may have to write the Dutch article on L(j)oedmila Toerisjtsjeva (!) just to atone myself. ;>) User:Pan_Gerwazy --pgp 12:36, 1 May 2006 (UTC)

First of all some preliminary notes before I list my points.

• I think, we should not go into discussing "language", "nationality" and similar off-topic issues, this will produce flood, not a healthy discussion. I asked to provide a citation, which would support your own opinion, plain and simple. If you want to know my opinion on these topics, well: I never "rank" people neither by race nor by language or nationality both in Wikipedia and in real life; but again, it's only my own opinion, off-topic and unrelated to this article.
• Second preliminary note would be that Google searches are not themselves reliable sources, they can only be used to find reputable ones (BTW, my searches for both names produced much different results from your ones, although equal to each other: "for Tourischeva", "for Turishcheva").
• It would be better, if a user, who moved the article back to its initial name should first provide a rationale for that on the Talk Page, and we could together find the best solution of the problem

Now, please, be patient a little more: I'll provide my points on her name issue, with references to reliable sources. Then feel free to provide your ones. Cmapm 15:15, 1 May 2006 (UTC)

Here are my points with references to reliable sources:

• There are no strict rules for transcription of all Russian names into English in Wikipedia (see Romanization of Russian, namely "when it is a commonly accepted convention" notes there). Id est using certain transcription for this name would not imply usage of same rules for any other names. "When it is a commonly accepted convention" statement doesn't contain any prohibitions of "French-like" and similar transcriptions. I don't find this to be controversial, for example, generally accepted convention for international sports organizations' acronyms is to use French ones, e.g. we use "FIG", not "IFG" in English sources, FIFA, FEI, etc...
• The International Gymnastics Hall of Fame uses "Ludmilla Tourischeva" variant; as inductees participate in induction ceremonies, I believe, that this transcription is accepted by Tourischeva herself and is probably the most appropriate, not to mention, that IGHOF is an English and very reliable source
• Although the IOC used various variants, "Tourischeva" is found in at least six its official publications (Olympic Revue) [1], [2], [3], [4], [5], Official Report of the Organizing Committee of 1976 Summer Olympics While other variants seems to be less frequent (no entries for "Turishcheva", four entries for "Turischeva"). "Lyudmila" is more popular there, than "Ludmilla", but at the FIG and in the IGHOF it's less popular
• International Federation of Gymnastics used the variant "Tourischeva" on eight its pages [6],[7], [8], [9], [10], [11], [12], [13]. While other variants it used less frequently (no entries for "Turishcheva", four entries for "Turischeva", however, it has 17 entries for "Turicheva", but this variant seems to be absent in other sources, e.g.IOC ones)

So, my conclusion would be: the variant "Ludmilla Tourischeva") is more approved by reputable sources,than any other one and the article should be renamed to this name.Cmapm 16:05, 1 May 2006 (UTC)

I also agree that the article should be renamed to Ludmilla Tourischeva. The next alternatve would be Turischeva.

• There's a precedent on Wiki to use the most commonly known and recognized translation of names. It doesn't matter where the subject resides. All that matters is which spelling is commonly used. As Cmapm correctly stated, Tourischeva is the variant that is found most often in literature and documents pertaining to gymnastics: The IOC website, the FIG, International Gymnast, the New York Times, etc. I've also gone back and looked at some old comeptition footage and that's the name given in the captions. The Montreal Olympics were at the tail end of Tourischeva's competitive career; and the translation of her name did not come from the French-speaking organizers; it came from whatever the USSR delegation submitted to the IOC and FIG. There's already a precedent for this: we use Gutsu instead of Hutsu, Tatiana instead of Tatyana, Maria instead of Marya, etc., because those are the English translations as submitted and used for official purposes.

• The goal in naming articles should be to make them accessible. Most people, be they gymnastics fans or casual passerby, will not think to search for Lyudmila Turishcheva. In fact, when I first found Wiki, I tried searching for Tourischeva's name myself and was puzzled when it didn't come up. This is not a variation of Tourischeva's name that is accepted by the anglophone public or by Tourischeva herself. Mademoiselle Sabina 18:57, 1 May 2006 (UTC)

As I don't see any comments of my points and Mademoiselle Sabina's ones, I temporarily move the page to more sourced "Ludmilla Turischeva" (I can't move it to "Ludmilla Tourischeva" again as I'm not an administrator) and will propose to rename it to even more sourced "Ludmilla Tourischeva".

I want to make one more comment on Google searches. I cannot imagine how it was possible to get 25 results for "Tourischeva"! The search Turishcheva -site:wikipedia.org produces 580 results, many of which are Wikipedia's mirrors (like Answers.com). While Tourischeva -site:wikipedia.org produces 679 results! Cmapm 23:33, 1 May 2006 (UTC)

The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.

Nobody in gymnastics knows Turishcheva?

A number of sites where the normal transliteration from Russian is used:

[14][[15] [16] [17]

| Encyclopedia Britannica 2006 on line

There are even Olympics databases who use Turishcheva, I guess because they work back from 1968: [18]

The "Tourischeva" problem arose because before Glaznost, the Soviet Union used a transliteration system based on French rather than German or English, which were politically incorrect languages at the time. However, usually, English-speaking organizers would transliterate from the Russian version of the name (and so would German ones, Dutch ones ...) As for "Ludmilla" - that is simply a typing error. The double l was never on her passport, I am almost sure.

However, since Lyudmila now lives in the Ukraine, the Russian transliteration and the Cyrillic version will have to be changed to conform to Ukrainian standards. It will have to be "Ivanivna" in future. I am leaving that to the Ukrainians on Wikipedia.

Note that if you google on "Lyudmila Turishcheva" -wiki in the correct way (with double quotation marks around the name, and one l in the Christian name!) you DO get 1390 instances. If you google on "Ludmilla Tourischeva" -wiki in the same way, you get ... 376 instances (hm - which one would be the "conventional" version then?) There are other versions of course:

"Ludmilla Turishcheva" -wiki 7

"Lyudmilla Turishcheva" -wiki 7

"Ludmila Turishcheva" -wiki 14

"Ludmila Tourischeva" -wiki 256 (this was probably the name on her Soviet passport)

"Lyudmila Tourischeva" -wiki 228

"Lyudmilla Tourischeva" -wiki 4

"Lyudmila Turischeva" -wiki 95

"Lyudmilla Turischeva" -wiki 12

"Ludmilla Turischeva" -wiki 302

"Ludmila Turischeva" -wiki 280

In all:

Lyudmila 1713

Ludmila 560

Lyudmilla 23

Ludmilla 685

(I forgot to mention 13 googles for "Liudmila" ...)

Turishcheva 1418

Turischeva 689

Tourischeva 864

I think this clarifies what I wanted to say. But I am not going to propose a new move, because if there has to be a move, it will have to be to the Ukrainian version of her name. In the meantime, there are still quite some Turishchevas left on Vladislav Rastorotsky [User_talk:Pan_Gerwazy]]--pgp 15:38, 14 June 2006 (UTC)

I'm still on Wikibreak, but I'm passing through and I saw this and felt a need to respond.

However, since Lyudmila now lives in the Ukraine, the Russian transliteration and the Cyrillic version will have to be changed to conform to Ukrainian standards. It will have to be "Ivanivna" in future. I am leaving that to the Ukrainians on Wikipedia.

Um...why? Shall we change the names of everyone who leaves their home country and lives somewhere else? Since Jim Morrison died in Paris should we give him French name?!

Just because she's living in Ukraine does not mean she loses the Russian name with which she was born. In addition, in press releases for the Ukranian Gymnastics Federation, Tourischeva is still referred to by her Russian name; this is the name she uses.

In addition, semantics and discussions of Glastnost aside, the fact remains that Tourischeva is the most commonly accepted variation of the name. It is used in all official organizations having to do with gymnastics including the FIG and the IGHOF. Tourischeva is heavily involved in the sport at this level; if she herself wished to be known by a different spelling, she would certainly indicate this and have it changed.

In conclusion:

• A person's physical location does not change their birth name.
• Tourischeva herself accepts and uses the spelling as such. Shall we tell the subject of the article she doesn't know how to spell her own name?
• The name Tourischeva is commonly used and accepted in all major governing bodies and English-speaking media outlets. This has been proven by links to reputable and important websites. Mademoiselle Sabina 14:26, 17 June 2006 (UTC)

Google searches are not the argument, because they depend on the method, time of search, etc. Hence, this my comment is just on sources, cited by you.

• Website Gymn-Forum (your first link) prefers "Turischeva" over both "Turishcheva" and "Tourischeva" variants (it's mentioned on 56 pages against 25 and 5 respectively).
• Website GymWorld (your 2nd link) is the Message Board and its reliability is questionable.
• Website Intlgymnast (your 3rd link) prefers "Turischeva" over both "Turishcheva" and "Tourischeva" too (25 entries against 3 and 0 respectively).
• Website Infoplease.com (your 4th link) prefers "Tourischeva" over both "Turishcheva" and "Turischeva" (16 entries against 1 and 0 respectively).
• Britannica uses different variants: Student Britannica uses "Tourischeva" variant [19]

And finally, yes, you proved, that at least one non-official Olympic database uses "Turishcheva" variant, but note, that the official Olympic institution, International Olympic Committee never used "Turishcheva" variant in its publications between 1896 and 2000. Besides, "Turishcheva" variant was not used in official coverages of Olympics, where she participated (1972 and 1976).

To sum it up, your sources did not prove, that "Turishcheva" is more popular variant, than other ones. I'll not repeat my points, they are listed above, just underline, that major gymnastics bodies: International Gymnastics Hall of Fame the IOC and the FIG prefer "Ludmilla Tourischeva" variant.

As to Vladislav Rastorotsky article, I'll fix it now, because arguments for "Ludmilla Tourischeva" variant in the previous discussion were considered stronger, than against it by an admin, who moved the page to the current name. And opposite is not yet proved. As to your opinion on the situation with English language in the USSR, cite your sources. Cmapm 08:05, 15 June 2006 (UTC)

Free

JukoFF (talk) 01:11, 8 February 2009 (UTC)

Eponymous skills

This article has a section which reads:

Eponymous skills Vault: Tsukahara tucked (4.0)

"Eponymous" means "named after the person in question." The author of the section must have misread Tsukahara as Tourischeva. The statement in the article is not backed up by any citation, meaning that someone should remove the section in its entirety, before it becomes some sort of Internet "fact." Speaking of which, I think I will do the removal myself.--71.36.113.60 (talk) 03:41, 1 July 2016 (UTC)

I think you are right. Thank you for spotting this and dealing with it. LynwoodF (talk) 07:59, 1 July 2016 (UTC)

Tourishcheva

Shouldn't the correct anglosaxon transliteration be Tourishcheva (Cyrillic: Тури́щева, scientific transliteration Turiščeva)? -- SERGIO aka the Black Cat 23:09, 22 February 2017 (UTC)